Talk:Nasty, Brutish,
Doesn't this story fit into "Noninterference"? TR 02:43, 19 September 2007 (UTC) Nope. It fits into "Earthgrip" and I have amended the article to reflect this. ML4E 02:58, 19 September 2007 (UTC) I knew it was one of those sci-fi stories I haven't read. TR 03:07, 19 September 2007 (UTC) Dating It's hard to date this story relative to Earthgrip. On the one hand, the Foitan character tells Walter that the ancient Foitani had a policy of introducing genetically engineered incurable, communicative, deadly respiratory illnesses into the populations of primitive species whom they considered too unstable to allow them to attain interstellar travel. They tried to do it to us but, while the disease proved incurable and communicative, it was not deadly; it is in fact the common cold. In Earthgrip this information is supplied by the Great Ones, suggesting that the modern Foitani were not aware of it. That's not guaranteed; they may have been holding it back in dealing with humans to avoid being impolite (highly unlikely) or to keep human characters willing to cooperate, or simply didn't feel it was relevant. Still, the fact that the Foitan character in this story was aware that his people created the cold virus implies that the short story is set after the novella, but not definitively. :Could it also be that some populations of Foitani knew, but others didn't? It's been a long time since I read NB&, and I remembered very little but the common cold twist. But EG did have multiple little groups who had, IIRC, varying degrees of technology, etc. Obviously, this does nothing to date NB&, but it might help resolve some of the inconsistency. TR 16:30, May 18, 2011 (UTC) ::If I recall correctly thirty Foitan colonies survived the Suicide Wars and produced their own societies, and as of Earthgrip six of the thirty had rediscovered interstellar travel. Two of those six were involved in the events of Earthgrip directly. All of them reverenced the Great Ones of the antebellum era and of course each insisted that they and they alone were the legitimate spiritual successors of that storied civilization. All six were from the vodran side of the Suicide Wars, those who begin life as girls and turn into men when they reach a certain age. The Great Ones who were awakened--producing a seventh spacefaring Foitan group--were kwopillot, Foitani who are born either male or female and remain as such their whole lives. ::At the end Logan is teaching a class and looks up and here come a whole bunch of Foitani. You can tell their planets of origin by the color of their fur. Jennifer says that both modern Foitani colors with which she's familiar are represented, so are the Great Ones, and so are several others. Any modern Foitani who were in the same room as the Great Ones would need to know what was going on because of some sort of pheromonal issue. Now does several mean four? Not necessarily. And no, I don't remember the color of the Foitan in NB&. ::I do remember the bartender pointing out that the Foitani were starting to make a comeback in that area of space, which could mean anything or nothing. I also remember that NB& was written before EG. I think HT meant the Foitani to be a one-off species for a "Hey, look where the common cold came from!" story and later decided to bring them back when he wrote his pulp novel. And if that wasn't enough, his introductory essay to NB& in Departures states quite clearly that the two belong in the same universe. ::I wonder if I still have my copy of Earthgrip? It was delightfully campy. Turtle Fan 18:53, May 18, 2011 (UTC) At the same time, Walter is under the impression that the Suicide Wars were fought for reasons other than gender issues, which was the big payoff of the novella in Earthgrip. It's possible that the Foitani decided to suppress this knowledge after all, though that wasn't the direction that HT left the novella heading off in and it's unlikely he would reverse it in this way. It's less likely still that the humans who learned this information were willing to go along with the coverup, though I guess that maybe they decided airing the information wasn't worth the price of invoking Foitani wrath when the deeply unpleasant Foitani were content to leave them alone otherwise. So the fact that the true causes of the Suicide Wars were unknown implies that the short store is set before the novella, but not definitively. Now since Earthgrip straddles the line between Third Millennium and Far Future, the timing of N, B & . . . relative to it is going to decide which category it's in. While Earthgrip takes place over ten years and the novella in question takes place over many weeks, the short story takes place over an hour or two, so unless it's Millennial Eve (ugh, remember all the irritating hooplah? Twice?) it can only be in one or the other. Still, I do feel having it in both categories is the only viable option open to us, given the ambiguity. Turtle Fan 01:02, May 18, 2011 (UTC) Dating, revisited Pursuant to the above rigmarole from 8 years past. In my headcanon, I simply go with the idea that Walter Harbron is not a very well-read man when it comes to Foitani history. They're not his people, nor even from his part of the galaxy, so he doesn't feel any compulsion to study them too deeply. Therefore, it is plausible that he might have heard some aspects of the new discoveries, but is totally ignorant about others. I see something of myself in him. For example, I can never remember who the current Prime Minister of the United Kingdom is, since it seems like they get a new one each week. The PM of Japan is even worse. (And speaking of worse, in a way that has nothing to do with this novel, the Canadian PM is a racist asshole whose pretty face makes people forget he is just as bad as the orange baboon.)Matthew Babe Stevenson (talk) 21:33, November 11, 2019 (UTC) ::Actually Japan's on its longest=serving postwar PM these days. I read his name in The Economist a few weeks ago and thought "Shit! That guy's still around?" Turtle Fan (talk) 23:24, November 12, 2019 (UTC) :Actually, going over the story again, I can't find a reference either way to anything Harbron did or did not know about the cause of the Wars. It simply never comes up. The "inconsistency" may be wholly unwarranted.Matthew Babe Stevenson (talk) 08:42, November 12, 2019 (UTC) ::Perhaps. Turtle Fan (talk) 23:24, November 12, 2019 (UTC)